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Open Thread Thursday | June 3, 2010
Okay loyal readers, here is your chance to get the discussion going. Let us know what is on your mind. Today is a great day for the Pine!
37 Responses to “Open Thread Thursday | June 3, 2010”
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We have to bring up the issue of last night, perhaps (in my mind), the biggest discussion topic in sports this year. The umpire making the wrong call on an attempt for a perfect game…What the “F” was he thinking???? I have more to say, but would like some initial reactions first…
I’ll take some criticism for this, but I’ll honestly give you my first reaction when I saw it: I felt bad for the umpire. It was an obvious blown call. But for whatever reason, I thought about the amount of pressure on the umpires in that situation. I can see where he might have thought the pitcher bobbled the throw. Regardless, he has to make an instant decision. What if the reverse happened? Say the runner was safe and maybe thinking about the moment, the ump calls him out. I wonder if the reaction would be as vociferous as it is today.
I give credit to two people: the pitcher and the umpire. He has already admitted to his mistake and apologized. The pitcher, exhibiting self-control beyond my imagination, laughed it off and never said a word.
The question from this incident becomes whether or not we want to remove the human element from sports officiating. The pundits are already saying this will be the play that solidifies instant replay in MLB. Honestly, I hope not. Then again, for the sake of umpires, maybe they, too, want it so as to never face a situation like this.
I had a similar reaction to Rey’s. It was great how the ump (ironically named Jim Joyce) took full responsibility for his mistake. It was great how Galarraga responded.
A side issue: we were one out from three perfect games in a month. We haven’t had two perfect games in a YEAR since 1888. Is the infatuation with the home run finally causing a problem?
To respond to Casey, Tim Kurkjian predicted at the beginning of the season that this would be the year of the pitcher. With performances from Jimenez, Halladay, Sabathia, etc. and many other pitchers around the league who are winning games at record paces, considering the events of the last 2 decades of baseball, I would say that he was right on. I can’t remember a year recently when I’ve been so eager to watch pitchers from teams that I don’t care that much about. I would pay to watch Jimenez, Halladay, Lincecum, Price and other pitchers around the league on teams that I either don’t care about or in fact hate, such as Price on the Rays. Has the steroid controversy that has plagued baseball over the past decade finally coming to a rest? Has MLB finally cleaned up the game enough? It’s amazing that we don’t see any “Monsters of Mass” around the league anymore like we saw when Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, A-Rod, Giambi, Bagwell were all crushing homeruns using their freakishly veiny and over-muscular forearms and biceps. We see regular fat guys (Prince Fielder and Big Papi), huge country boys (i.e. Adam Dunn), husky dudes like Cabrera and Corey Hart, Scott Rolen or plain good hitters like Konerko, Wells, and Pujols leading the league in homers. These guys are in shape, for the most part (Fielder), but don’t look freakishly big. It’s been a real change, a noticeable change, and I’d have to argue it’s been good for baseball. 5 Tool players are back, speed and stolen bases are back, incredible defensive play is back, and I think a lot of it has to be attributed to the fact that since you can no longer use performance enhancing drugs, guys have to rely on real talent and athleticism as opposed to pure power to be good players in this league.
While I went off on a seeming tangent there, I have to get back to the umpire call and repeat my words from earlier…”WHAT THE ‘F’ WAS HE THINKING??!!!!”
Just call the guy out!! A close play at 1st in a game with a 3 run cushion and seemingly no desire on the other team to win (as evidenced by the baserunner putting his hands on his head in disappointment at the call) and you make that call??? Just call him out. Even if he is safe by a nano-centimeter (is that a measurement). Just call him out!!!! How often do major league umpires assume the runner is out on great defensive plays, rewarding the fielder for his effort? It happens ALL THE F-ING TIME!! It’s part of baseball, and you see it at every level from Modified Baseball to the majors. And as a coach myself, the coaches don’t mind, and usually never say a word about it, specifically when a defender makes a great play. That was a great play by the 1st baseman and pitcher, it was the last out of a perfect game, the game was decided and the team didn’t want to win, this type of play happens all the time. All of these factors should have been playing through the umpire’s mind…Again, WHAT WAS HE THINKING?? JUST CALL HIM OUT!!!!
Dan,
“It’s been a real change, a noticeable change, and I’d have to argue it’s been good for baseball. 5 Tool players are back, speed and stolen bases are back, incredible defensive play is back, and I think a lot of it has to be attributed to the fact that since you can no longer use performance enhancing drugs, guys have to rely on real talent and athleticism as opposed to pure power to be good players in this league.”
is a little different from:
“I, for one, could care less. It happened, people used them, some continue to use them. Does that really take away from the real purpose of sports (on tv at the professional level)…entertainment?? Have you stopped watching baseball because of Bonds, Clemens, etc.? I bet the answer is NO. Will you not watch the Texans this year when they play your favorite team because of Cushing? I bet again, NO. Do people, does anyone, really care? Or do people just make a big deal because they think people care or because they think people should care, morally, and are trying to act “Holier than thou”?? I personally do not care. Baseball was fun when Barry, Big Mac, and Sousa were crushing a million HRs a year. Tell me you weren’t interested in following their numbers and hoping that every at bat wasn’t going to be a bomb. ..
Professional sports is professional entertainment. It’s something to keep us busy, something for us to discuss, something to take us away from our sometimes hum drum lives. Do we hate the sports or athletes because of PED’s?? We may, but we keep watching and we keep discussing. And again, isn’t that really what professional sports is all about??”
What was he thinking, Dan? He was thinking that the runner was safe, plain and simple. His job isn’t to take the circumstances into consideration. It’s to make a call based on what he sees…in this case, safe or out. He was wrong, and he admitted it. It was a very bad call, and it’s unfortunate that it happened under such circumstances. But, you know what else? He’s human. Count how many mistakes you make today, and just be happy they don’t get the exposure that his did.
I’m not sure what the basis for your statement about umpires making out calls that reward players for great defensive plays is. That doesn’t happen in the Major League Baseball I’ve been watching all my life.
Mistakes happen … and this was one of them. Unfortunately, the blown call cost the kid a shot at immortality … or at least to be mentioned forever as one of the very few people on an elite list … the list of perfect game pitchers.
Regarding the potential use of replay … I can’t remember where I heard it ysterday, but somebody mentioned that each manager has a red sock/flag (like the NFL) and can toss it on the field once per game to have a key play reviewed by instant replay. I think that’s a pretty good idea … and if we had that process in place, we’re not having this discussion today about the perfect game that wasn’t.
Other topics:
* Bummed my Blackhawks lost in OT last night, but it was a terrific game.
* Predictions for Celtics vs Lakers? I say the Celtics will win in 7 exciting games. I actually think they are a bit deeper … Rondo will cause problems … and we know they can play lockdown D for huge stretches … something the Suns cannot do.
You know, you never hear many announcers if any praising the umpires for the job they do. No doubt the call last night was blown, but he owned up to it right away. And the pitcher was a freaking saint too – you can tell he’s not on steroids. Mistakes happen, it’s a human thing.
What’s worse, say, McGwire (or insert any other juicing player’s name here) crying like a baby saying he didn’t take drugs, and then crying like a baby saying he did, or an ump blowing a call, and then swearing like a dockworker saying he ruined a kid’s night? You want to talk ethics and all, I’ll have that ump over for dinner any night of the week, but I keep McGwire as far away from my kids as possible.
And another thing, what’s more stressful, trying to hit .300, or trying not to blow every call you make?
Casey and Dan, 5 tool players may not be back, but I am!!!
Do umpires miss calls? Yes, in my playing days they missed them all!! And it certainly speaks to his character that he admitted missing the call. Only a few instances come to mind where umpires have admitted that they missed calls, even though they miss them daily.
The pressure of the situation?Seriously? It feels like a lot of pressure when you compare it to what we do on a daily basis. That’s because we just sit around all day, at least that’s what I do can’t speak for anybody else, but I sit at the beach, can’t blame me. When you went around that stadium, who had more pressure on him the players or the umpires. My point is suck it up, you’re a professional. The people next to you are under if not as much more pressure than you.
If the shortstop for the A’s (don’t know his name) had made an error on the last play of the game in Braden’s perfecto, would we be talking about pressure of the situation or would we be talking about how bad a fielder he is? I for one, would not sympathize with him. What if instead as he was running to get the ball he just fell? Hey, he’s under a lot of pressure, we should sympathize with him. Besides he’s human and that was just a mistake.
You know what I happen to currently be in the greater Boston area. I’m about to go tell my neighbors that Billy Buckner was human. Pesky is probably at the diner in Salem, I’m sure he’d be happy to know that he’s also human.
One last thing.
Why are we acting like pitchers were not on PED’s? Remember in the minors more pitchers than hitters were caught using performer enhancers.
@Rey
If the reverse had happened, we would have not found out about it. At that point it’s not the story. The story than is the perfect game.
@Dan
Stolen bases are back, really? There were more stolen bases per game in the years ’98, ’99, ’01. Plus since 2006, stolen base per game has accurately been at .6. There is no real change.
5 tool players are back? No they aren’t. I’m sorry I haven’t seen them, my fault. Look my point is that the only change in behavior I’ve seen is that less homeruns are being hit and with this crazy good pitching, you can attribute it to that. Unless there is an influx of 5 tool players, and I’m not talking about just Jason Heyward, 5 tool players are not back.
Incredible defensive play is back? Sorry, defensive plays hasn’t really gone anywhere.
How about we just agree that since homeruns are down, and pitching is up, everybody wants to believe that everything else just moved magically. Well I tend to believe in the simplest explanation, and that is that pitchers are pitching better!!!
Gino – Nice point on pitchers using PED’s.
Casey – Man, you jumped at that chance. Appreciate that…:) I do think I was explaining two different points. It’s a subtle difference, but I do believe there is a difference. And besides, whatever I say on here is what comes to me at that moment in between moments of stressing about grades. Maybe I should be more careful with my words, but I do this for the fun of it.
Chas – I don’t hate the ump or think that I don’t make mistakes. Believe me, Casey will be quick to point out any mistakes I make and I do make many. On your other point…Are you telling me that you’ve never seen an ump give a call to the defense on a tie with the baserunner?? A tie is supposed to go to the baserunner, but it happens all the time where this is not true. It happens. Also, please understand that I’m not arguing. Email and blogs can be tough. Just throwing some banter out there between periods to get my mind off of grading. This is all in good fun on my end.
Bill and Wally – I do agree that I love the way that the umpire reacted. He took the heat from the manager and everyone else and sincerely apologized. We’ve all made mistakes and it showed a real human side to him. How can you hate the guy? I know I said “What was he thinking?”, but I’m certainly not hating on the guy. I agree that it was standup move to apologize and admit his mistake.
On the NBA note…I’m pumped for the game tonight. I have to admit that the “sexy” matchup does intrigue me probably more than if it had been Suns vs. Magic. It takes a lot to be motivated enough to stay up until midnight to watch a game when you have to wake up at 6:00. I’ve been trying to get my 8 hours. hahahaha
All good discussion…I’m glad to see the “heat”…
Gino – I still think regardless of being at the highest level of their profession, there is still pressure especially in such unique situations as that. And if I’m correct, winning heals all wounds. Didn’t a sell out crowd cheer for Buckner after their ceremony for the 2004 banner?
What’s good about this for Galaragga and Joyce is that it wasn’t in an important game. We remember blown calls in wins and losses but this will be forgotten quickly.
How many perfect games or no-nos were broken by a single hit in the 2nd inning?
Imagine if we could go back and review our day on a camera. What if we could slow it down frame by frame….. and then listen to people criticize how we didn’t do our job correctly. Personally, throughout an average day – I am bound to make mistakes. Given that I am hard on myself – I certainly don’t need someone pointing the mistakes out as well. It might cause me to make another “mistake”.
Dan, if you want to look at mistakes by an umpire – look at Roy Halladay’s perfect game. Did you see a couple of called third strikes? A couple were probably balls – but the umpire called them strikes. Was it a mistake? By the rules of the strike zone – yes. But I don’t see anyone calling for that home plate umpire’s job. Where is the outrage with that? Or should he take the mentality of “hey Halladay has a perfecto going – let me help him out or not be cause of perfect game to end”. No the umpire made the calls based on what he thought was the right call at the time.
Jim Joyce made what he thought to be the right call. We had the luxury to watch the play over and over in slow motion. He didn’t . I give him credit for immediately going in, watching the replay and owning up to his mistake. Hey if Galaragga has forgiven him – who gives us the right to hold a grudge?
Now I may be in the minority on this – but I am in complete agreement with the Bud Selig’s decision not to overturn the call. I have heard arguments tonight that the game didn’t matter and it wouldn’t change the outcome of the game. No way!! Bud Selig would be heading down a slippery slope if he overturned the call. What is next? If he can do it for this game, why can’t he do it for another game? I go back to Halladay’s perfect game – if the Marlins bring proof to Selig to show him that a couple of those 3-2 pitches were balls – is he required to award a walk and ruin Halladay’s perfect game?
This is the part about baseball that is great…. but also bad. You have to take the good along with the bad. Right now, this is the bad.
Wally…. The Stanley Cup has been incredible so far. All 3 games have been riveting.. and all in different ways.
Do you think that the Stanley Cup is better this year because of the NHL’s ability to remove PEDs from the game of hockey?
Just wanted to get your thoughts..
Sorry Dan, I couldn’t resist..:-)
hahahahaha…..nice Smitty, nice…
I think the Halladay situation proves my point a little bit that umpires are conscious of the situation and sometimes make calls based on the situation, and no one complains about it. There was not this much debate or controversy when Halladay did throw his perfect game. I, personally, do think umpires do this…again, just my opinion, not trying to state fact….
I think the Stanley Cup finals is worse this year to an average sports fan. Hockey could have used another Crosby/Ovechkin matchup to continue the roll they’ve been on since the Olympics. It still has potential though, if a great story like the Flyers being down 3-1 and they come back and force a game 7 and win. That would be a good story and would draw the casual fans back to watch those games. Nothing majorly exciting or newsworthy at this point though… Time will tell.
Entertaining the casual fan does not make the sport better or anymore exciting.
Great article from the New York Times, particularly the part about Bruce Froemming, and the Galarraga quote:
http://nyti.ms/clu2B0
Any umpire that takes the situation into consideration has less integrity than Froemming and Joyce.
Another great article, which backs up Smitty’s point that overturning the call would have been a bad decision:
http://yhoo.it/9SPTfX
Chas – great having you back on the Pine.
Chas,
You’re right,. Taking situation into consideration has no integrity.
Dan,
Are you saying that Halladay’s perfecto was cooked by umpires?
Umpires taking situations into consideration is nothing more than a way of rationalizing a call in order that you just accept it. Everybody feels like every close play should go there way, and that the umpire made a mistake if it doesn’t. Now when they’re against you the idea that an umpire made a large number of mistakes is a little tougher to swallow than the one that he just rewarded the player and will do the same for both teams.
An idea that allows that type of thinking is the neighborhood play. If umpires will stretch the rule book and allow a middle infielder to leave the bag early and protect himself, why not stretch it more and reward them for these plays?
Besides isn’t it easier to rationalize 1 play that didn’t go your way instead of arguing and looking like a cry baby over a close play which is a very tough call to begin with?
Going to the Cubs vs Astros game in Houston tonight. I will go early to secure myself a Jimmy Wynn “Toy Cannon” bobblehead and to witness batting practice. This latter thing is really important to see some offense, cuz I’m afraid the game itself may be a scoreless tie called on account of boredom. Silva faces Oswalt tonight … Silva is off to one terrific start (strange … he couldn’t do crap for the Mariners).
Hey Casey – did you hear that the Big Lead blogger sold rights to his site for “low seven figures.” Got any offers lately for ‘The Pine?’
No offers. I guess I need to start irresponsibly posting scandals.
Yeah! More scantily clad women on here wouldn’t hurt either.
Maybe we should start a discussion on the hottest female broadcasters.
I’m jealous of Wally’s weekend. Had a lot of time this weekend and here’s what I had to choose from sports-wise: USA v. Australia friendly in what looked like an abandoned cow pasture, Indians/White Sox on WGN, Yankees/Jays on TBS, softball college world series (no choice because of the wife), and finally what I think was 7 v. 7 college rugby. Then there was some game where guys skated around on ice and used sticks to smack at a rock.
That noise you just heard was Wally celebrating the Hawks’ third goal.
Considering the recent recall of Shrek glasses for containing cadmium, how well do you think the chicken nuggets in the Shrek box will go over?
What would Jeff Van Gundy say about that question?
HELMET STICKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holy cow! Don’t blink, you’ll miss a goal in the hockey game.
Now, if we could just get the NHL guys to take some PEDs. Then that sport will become the most popular in the USA.
Does Patrick Kane have some serious puck handling and skating skills?!?! That guy often has the defense eating out of his hands. Impressive.
QUITE PLEASED the Blackhawks came out with some fire for Game 5 and have taken a 3-2 lead in the series. But it’s far from over. This has been a great series thus far …. I expect Philly to answer in Game 6, but hope I’m wrong and the Hawks win it there.
On Patrick Kane’s skills – we train ‘em well in Western New York!
BOO YAH!!
Does it seem odd to anyone else that the MLB draft is taking place today and many of these guys are still playing? Talk about distractions in the dugout.
Alaska’s also pretty good at turning out hockey players: Matt Carle of the Flyers.
MLB has a draft? I thought it was just another Scott Boras run Job Fair.
First thoughts on Strasburg’s first outing in MLB.. I am impressed – very impressed with his curveball. But let’s see how he does against a stronger lineup than the Pirates.
But that curveball is NASTY!! It reminds me a lot of Kerry Wood’s curveball when he first came on the scene. I just hope Strasburg’s arm holds up better than Wood’s. Something tells me that the Nationals will protect him more then the Cubs did with Woods or Prior.
14 K’s and ZERO walks … even if it was the Pirates, that’s a HELLUVA MLB debut !!!! Yes, staying healthy will be the key … if Strasburg has good health fortune, he’s gonna be one of the all-time greats. I said “If …”.
We all must’ve collectively jinxed Ray Allen. Oh for 13 … ouch!