Open Thread Thursday | February 4, 2010
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Anyone else feel like all of the praise being garnered this week by Peyton Manning might jinx his performance on Sunday? He has been analyzed at nauseum by every tv sports personality around and every one of them seems to be trying to out due the next with their exuberant praising of Peyton (or “God” as it seems like many of them would like to proclaim him).
I love Manning as much as anyone, but all this praise does is set him up for failure to meet the expectation hype.
Commentators need to stop jocking Manning up so much and pay attention to the game as a whole. If no one has noticed, the Saints have not been stopped by anyone. They have been an offensive machine this year and can attack you with a barrage of weapons from a myriad of different angles. And it’s not like the Colts “D” is anything special. They are not the same defense that was on such a remarkable roll a few years ago when the “D” carried the Colts through the playoffs and into the Super Bowl.
Give Drew Brees and Sean Payton 2 weeks to prepare and you get an offensive performance like the one against Arizona. They are a game planning offense and much of their success (a large portion compared with other teams) comes from the design of their plays, not just the execution. They have guys wide open at different parts of the field because of their game planning. Watch how their play action will set up their deep game and their screen game and watch the amount of room that some receivers and backs will have in the open field. Those large openings are due to game planning, not phenomenal play making ability. This is what the Saints thrive on and because Brees might be the most accurate passer in the league, their receivers always have the best opportunities to make plays.
What I’m trying to say is, don’t give up on the Saints. They will be fired up and their offense will come to play. Peyton has made mistakes in the past. He did have all of those losses to New England before their historic Super Bowl run and he did throw some costly interceptions in those games. He is not perfect and all of these commentators expecting him to be only makes that job that much harder and the Saints defense that much more eager to prove them wrong.
Should be fun.
What does the rest of “the Pine” think???
I agree 100% with your sentimet “Don’t give up on the Saints”. They are my pick. Indy’s only Super Bowl win came the one year they did NOT rest starters in final games. They rested them this year. Small thing, but atrend nevertheless.
As to Peyton Manning, he has been subjected to overly high expectations as a pro since the day he completed his senior season at TN. Manning has done very well, but I don’t think he’s ever quite measured up to the level to which so many media people have elevated him. I think the respect shown him by his peers and his popularity with fans indicates that ONLY the press has these unrealistic expectations. Others beside the media seem to appreciate Manning for what he CAN do, not what he CAN’T do!
You know, I’ll pull for the Saints to win, but one of my problems with the super bowl is the ridiculous amount of hype that goes on for a week or two before the game happens. The more the commentators dice it up before gametime, the more I start hoping there’s a commercial with a chimp or something. It’s the same as say, election coverage in June, all speculation, with only a slight amount worth listening to.
On another note, did I sleep through the pro bowl? I mean, did it happen? Was there any press on it?
This should be a high-scoring game … back and forth … both teams in or near the 30’s … both teams with a chance to win in 4th Qtr. I’m picking the Colts by a couple points, but my fellow bloggers have made several good points supporting the Saints. Could go either way. This guy says it’s the Colts.
This game is pivotal for Manning’s legacy. There’s the school that rates all-time QBs primarily on how they do in championship games … Conference and Super Bowl … and another school that looks primarily at career stats. And of course there’s the middle ground which weighs both. I guess I fall mostly in that first school … I think a QB’s job is to win first and foremost … stats are important, but secondary. Manning has had a FABULOUS career and one Super Bowl win. In my opinion, a second SB win cements him into Wally’s List of Top 5 QBs of all time, but a loss keeps him somewhere 6-10.
Make no mistake … he’s under extreme pressure in this one cuz of the perception that the Colts are all about Manning and that passing game, whereas the Saints are a well-balanced unit. Plus, the Colts have at best a 70% Dwight Freeney if he plays at all which makes their defense rather pedestrian. So if the Colts pull this one out … I think it’s a HUGE win for Manning on many fronts.
Agreed re: using championship game performance as the barometer. But using that barometer, Otto Graham has to be the greatest QB of all time; 7-0 in professional championship games and, while at Northwestern, also a member of the band; he joined them on the field during their halftime performances. My list also includes Starr, Montana, and Staubach, but none has the resume of Graham. Interesting that I do not rate Bradshaw highly; 4 Super Bowl crowns, but for some reason I can’t give him the nod. Steve Young is a “maybe”, as is Bob Griese. Tarkenton, Kelly, and Manning have not proven their worth on the biggest stage, but as Wally says, this game may cement Manning’s place on the list.
Funny that I did not mention Brady. He actually slipped my mind. Seriously, I wonder why? I think I have never really been a believer in his ability, but rather think he benefits from a “system”.
Pete –
I feel the same way about Brady … hard to put your finger on it. He’s undoubtedly been successful, but when it comes to the eye test, he’s never been that guy that’s carried his team to monumental wins on last minute dashes for TDs … field goals, yes … and of course I’ve harbored resentment toward him for the Tuck Rule game in which he was much more lucky than good. The Pats never deserved to be near the Super Bowl that year, but of course that “Tuck ruling” turned out to be the gift that kept on giving. Plus, they always seemed to have a great O-line and running game to keep the heat off of him. I’m sure Smitty or some other Pats lover will come screaming to his defense any minute now
People will say that Montana was a “system” QB. Now you and I both know that Montana had “it” when he came out of the womb. He was known as Joe Cool and the Comeback Kid due to his exploits at Notre Dame and of course he slayed Goliath by throwing that unbelievable pass to Dwight Clark which essentially ended the Cowboys dynasty under Tom Landry … and was the ignitor for the great 49ers dynasty. And gee … you never heard of the West Coast offense until Montana and the Niners were runnning it. Maybe Bill Walsh saw Montana and said “Hey, I’ve got a special QB here who I can do something different with.” Montana was the “system” … just like Manning is his own system with Indy. Under pressure, I’m not sure we’ve ever seen a QB who saw the whole field and threw the perfect pass as often as Montana did in big games.
Can’t argue with Otto Graham’s big game record and I’ve read great things about his career, but I never saw him play … so will likely always shortchange him for my “All-time” lists. My bad.
Bradshaw is also not quite in my Top 5, despite his 4 SB wins. Probably a little of that “Brady effect” coming in to play with him too.
Wally – From 2001 – through this year have you ever watched a Pats game? Without the bitter resentment of the “Tuck Rule”. Get over it!!
The Pats and starting with your favorite coach – Charlie Weis preferred doing one thing. Throw the ball to open up the running game. Alot of their offense was based on short passes.. similar to the West Coast “system”. In fact, in the last 10 years, the Pats have had 1,000 yard rusher just twice.
Montana had a 1,000 rusher behind him at least 3 times with Roger Craig.
Now I consider Joe Montana to be one of the best of all-time.. Don’t get me wrong, but to say that Montana didn’t benefit from being in a system that fit him or the fact that he was on some GREAT 49ers TEAMS. It wasn’t all Montana… he had a lot of help. Dwight Clark, Roger Craig, Wendell Tyler, Jerry Rice, John Taylor and others. The defense was just as good with guys like Charles Haley, Ronnie Lott, Jeff Stover and others.
Would Montana and his “it” won anything without those guys? I doubt it. And to say that Montana wasn’t in a system? Then explain how Steve Young could come in and lead the 49ers to a Super Bowl.. Don’t tell me that Steve Young had “it” too.. What a coincidence. Heck George Seifert pretty much run the same type of team after Bill Walsh retired and have it win.
Every great QB has to be in a system that fits him and Montana is no different.
And when does it matter if a QB leads his to a game winning TD or a field goal? The fact that Brady led his team not once, but twice to game winning drives in the Super Bowl tells me all I need to about the type of QB is.
And Belichick decided to draft and keep a QB who barely played in college certainly tells you something. Maybe Belichick had his “Walsh ” moment and realized that Brady had “it” as well.
As for Sunday.. I agree with Wally and think the biggest story come Sunday will be Dwight Freeney. The Colts need to put pressure on Brees and without Freeney – Robert Mathis won’t have any help. The Saints defense is healthy and you believe that Gregg Williams will do his best to confuse Manning for as long as possible.
Considering the two back ups to Freeney – Rudolph Hardie and Ervin Baldwin have combined total of 3 years of experience -how big is Jim Caldwell’s decision to get those guys some playing time the last two weeks of the season? It may end up paying out some huge dividends..
This should be a great game. Two great QBs – one whom I consider the greatest of all-time. Winning will cement that in my opinion. I am really looking forward to the game. Saints win 38-37.
That’s great, Smitty. I actually agree with much of your “Brady defense petition”, but he is still not in MY Top 5 and apparently isn’t in Pete’s either. He can be in yours and that’s fine. There is no universally correct answer here … it’s just opinion.
Anyway, just a hunch, but I think Montana woulda won wherever he was … because that’s what he did wherever he played before joining SF. And, uh, Steve Young was quite a QB in his own right … a great pedigree coming into pro football from BYU … highly sought after … great athlete … and I think he ended up with one of the highest career passer ratings of all time, if not the highest. But Young is not in my Top 5 either … I truly believe he was not as good as Montana, esp in the big playoff games, although he certainly had his moments.
By the way, I never said that Brady didn’t have “it”. And for the record, I think Young had “it” as well. It’s just that Montana had “IT” … with all caps and in bold.
Watching ND pummel Cincy on TV tonite when I caught Brian Kelly in the first mistake I have seen by him. While being interviewed they asked him about the BB game. He said he’d “like to see a bit more tenacity from Cincinnati.” C’mon Brian, you are not at Cincy any more!
Well … at least the Irish actually pummeled somebody for once. Where was that intensity at Rutgers?!?!?!!?
BK actually did a nice job saving the recruiting season. ND ended up in a decent spot … coulda been alot worse than #14-21.
Casey –
How about a Super Bowl prediction from you? And a comment on where Manning’s legacy might stand, win or lose, in your eyes.
Yeah Wally, you’ll have to forgive me if I liken your invitation to make a comment / prediction as a seduction by an std-ridden whore. Whatever I do, I am going to catch something.
Let’s see what ‘gibberish’ I can come up with.
Manning’s Legacy – Manning has amassed incredible stats. He is in the top 5 of pretty much every positive quarterback category there is. Our recent Mt. Otsego series seemed to indicate that stats without context are important, so I guess Manning is one of the top 5 qbs of all-time.
Interesting to note that in the category of Career Yards per pass attempt Manning is tied for 14th with Earl Morral, Dan Fouts, Roger Staubach, and Len Dawson. The top three in the category? Otto Graham, Sid Luckman, and Norm Van Brocklin. Graham averaged a yard more per attempt than Manning has. What does this suggest? Do you suppose Manning has taken advantage of the pass-happy 21st century NFL?
On Montana – I hate that I am going to cast Montana in a negative light (see what your bias creates Wally). At the age of 37, Kurt Warner had been given up on by two teams. He took his third team, the Cardinals, to the Super Bowl completing 67.1% of his passes and a passer rating of 96.9.
At the age of 37, Montana was on his second team. He led the Chiefs completing 60.7% of his passes with a rating of 87.4.
Montana certainly suffered some injuries. But so did Warner. Just seems like Joe’s ‘it’ was lower case and did not have bold letters when he was outside the system. Warner managed to fit in with a couple of teams.
Random prediction…the team that holds the other to fewer points will win.
Yes … and at that age Johnny Unitas was well below his peak too. C’mon Casey … can you do better than throwing stones at 37 year old QBs?
Is that really throwing stones or just pointing out the fact that Warner might not have been a “system” quarterback like Montana or Brady.. That was not a statement of Warner was better then Montana..
Wally, are you throwing up the white flag on the “system” question? You seem to be picking a different battle…
Uh … I don’t think Montana was in a “system” at Notre Dame … where he was a ) already great and b) his exploits were actually more legendary there than in his 49er days.
This sums up Montana’s clutchness: in 4 Super Bowl wins (out of 4), he was 83/132 for 1,142 yards, 11 TDs and ZERO INT’s. A QB rating of 128!!! He also rushed for over 100 yards and scored 2 TDs. For all playoff games, his rating was 96.
Tom Brady, a great QB in his own right, has won 3 of 4 Super Bowls and was 100/155 for 1,001 yards, 7 TDs and 1 INT. A QB rating of 95. Don’t even talk about scrambling. For all playoff games, Brady rates at 86.
Kurt Warner: won 1 of 3 Super Bowls; 83/133, 1,156 yards, 6 TD and 3 INTs for a rating of 96. Again, no rushing yards. He’s at 103 for all playoff games.
Peyton Manning’s QB rating is 88 for all playoff games. Terry Bradshaw was also an 88 for all playoff games, but 113 in 4 Super bowls.
And, guys, it’s a lot easier to throw the ball now in the Brady-Manning-Warner era due to the escalated rules enforcement on Pass interference and illegal contact.
Wait…”it’s a lot easier to throw the ball now in the Brady-Manning-Warner era due to the escalated rules enforcement on Pass interference and illegal contact?”
Your point is …. what?