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Open Thread Thursday | January 7, 2009
C’mon readers! It is your turn to pick the topic and get the discussion going. Someone step up and start us.
23 Responses to “Open Thread Thursday | January 7, 2009”
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I know that on this day a lot of people wanna talk football, but yesterday they totalled the HOF votes and Andre Dawson was the only player to get in (No Problem with him). My real problem is this one, Why is it taking so long for Bert Blyleven to get into the Hall of Fame? Could it be that writers actually don’t think he belongs?
Congrats to Andre Dawson!! About time!!
Gino, I question the integrity of some of the writers. Somebody voted for David Segui!! David Freakin’ Segui!! I also read that Pat Hentgen got a vote as well. Really? I am sorry but anyone voting for David Segui, a known steriod user – should be flogged in public and stripped of their right to vote.
I think part of Bert Blyleven’s case is that his stats aren’t “eye-popping” . Sure they are good and probably Hall of Fame worthy.. But someone who didn’t know much about him – suddenly saw his stats, wouldn’t be sitting at home screaming, “why isn’t this guy in the Hall of Fame?? ”
Roberto Alomar?? Tell me he didn’t get in because of the Hirschbeck incident. So we have left it up to the writers to take a stand for the public? Give me a break. He apologized back then and even Hirschbeck was on record saying that the guy was a first ballot Hall of Famer. Will the message be that effective when they vote him in next year?
McGwire received 23.7% of votes this year. At this point he should get in around 2025..
I think Alomar deserves it over Dawson. Both of these guys were playing when I was young and Alomar’s baseball cards were always more valuable to us as kids than Dawson’s.
Point made on Mike and Mike the other morning by Buster Olney I think…”Alomar changed the way the game was played. Before him, you did not see the no hand transfer straight from the glove on double plays, or the spin moves deep in the hole…” I don’t remember exactly what he said but it was along those lines. He thought for sure that Alomar would make it and only gave Dawson a chance. Interesting to see it the exact reverse.
McGwire did receive 10 more votes this year than last year.
I’ll throw this out there and see what people think… I think the steroid players, i.e. McGwire, Bonds, etc. should be in the Hall of Fame. I have some reasons but none of them incredibly compelling. I’m curious to see how others feel.
Really glad to see Dawson get in … what a class act and great ballplayer. Blyleven deserves to be in and will get there next year. Alomar is a shoo-in next year.
I don’t think McGwire will get in … unless he really improves his PR image and goes out of his way to come clean and help kids, etc. But if things stay the course and he doesn’t change, then no. Should he be in? Yes, probably. But I don’t feel incredibly strong about his candidacy irrespective of the ‘roids issue.
He doesn’t have eye-popping stats? His 3000 strikeouts popped my eyes out (just had them surgically replaced). Plus he won 287 games, not enough to pop eyes out but surely hall of fame worthy. Every other pitcher with 3000+ K’s who are eligible for the hall is on the hall.
So maybe he never won a Cy Young Award, but neither did Nolan Ryan.
He’s thrown 4900 Innings. Everybody that threw more innings than him are either in the hall of fame or somebody named Greg Maddux, and we know where he’s heading.
Let me say this if he won 13 more games he might have been first ballot, being Top 5 in strikeouts and and having 300 wins.
I’ll probably get fried for this one, but I will say it now and I’ll stick to these words, Steroid players should not at any point in their careers get in the hall of fame. When you take steroids you become infamous, and the hall is for fame, not for infamous.
In a time where steroids is being found on middle school playgrounds, there will be no rewarding of a steroid behavior.
McGwire won’t get in till he starts talking about the past. As long as he’s here to talk about the future, he’s not getting anywhere near the hall.
The real question is what do you do with A-Rod. I say if everyone else in this steroid cloud has not been allowed in, he should follow the same faith.
For the rest Alomar should have been first ballot, there’s a very slim number of 2nd basemen that people remember from the 90′s.
Gino!!!!!
Great having you back on the Pine. The place hasn’t been the same without you.
The Hawk is in the Hall! Justice has been served!!!!
Smitty you are absolutely correct about writers ‘wasting’ votes. Kevin Appier?!?
On the topic of steroid users and the Hall – ? Sure, if guys actually admit to it, they shouldn’t be allowed. I guess. But who am I to say. Man, I don’t want to have to figure out that one – especially when it comes to ARod.
The thing with steroids is the statistical influence it has had on the game, and the impact on interpreting those numbers. Andre Dawson has been directly affected by this. Dawson retired in 1996 – when the influence of steroids was taking hold. Suddenly, a guy like Dawson with 438 hrs. and 314 stolen bases looks just above average. By the way, there are only three guys in the history of baseball who can lay claim to 400 hrs and 300 sbs. One guy is in the Hall – Willie Mays. The other guy is Bonds.
Now, people are looking at Dawson’s numbers and saying – yeah, I guess he deserved it, or Alomar deserved it more. I don’t know who is more deserving Alomar or Dawson. I just know a 400 / 300 guy with 5 seasons hitting at least .300, 4 seasons with at least 100 RBI, and 8 eight Gold Gloves should not have had to wait as long as Dawson. But he did, and that has to be the impact of steroids.
As for McGwire, I’ve mentioned before that McGwire’s numbers are similar to Harmon Killebrew.
See for yourself: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcgwima01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/killeha01.shtml
Killebrew was not a first ballot guy. And Killebrew won an MVP. McGwire does not have that on his resume. How many field players who have NOT won an MVP are in the Hall? That says something. McGwire was never seen as THE player at any time he was playing. McGwire was pretty close to one-dimensional.
Gino – First let me start with the fact that I believe Bert “Be Home” Blyleven should be in the Hall of Fame. If not because of his career, but because of the one of the best nicknames/Bermanisms in MLB.. Ahh, back in a time when Chris Berman was refreshing and original.
Yes, Bert Blyleven’s stats are not “eye-popping”. I am sorry, but if you are in a starting pitcher in Major Leagues for 22 seasons – you better pitch 4900 innings. Yes, 287 wins is impressive, but he only won 20 games once (Phil Neikro pitched 5400 innings and won 20 games 3 times ).
For his 3700 strikeouts, he only led the league once in strikeouts once. Again for somebody WHO DOESN”T KNOW MUCH ABOUT HIM, might say that is a mark of a consistent ,but not great career.
He did lead the league once in CG in 1985 with an impressive 24 complete games. But he also lead the league twice in home runs allowed, holds the Major League record for most home runs allowed in a season (50) and has a career total of 430.
His postseason is impressive – 5-1 with a 2.47 ERA.
If you are going to compare him against Greg Maddux – Maddux won 20 games 3 times and 19 games 5 times. He lead the league in ERA 3 times and twice he had an ERA under 2.00. Maddux who was not known as a strikeout pitcher, had 3300+ strikeouts and that to me negates Blyleven’s 3700.
Again, don’t get me wrong. Blyleven for me is a Hall of Fame pitcher. I just think he is great example of a very good career over a long period of time. The differences between Maddux and Blyleven is what makes Maddux a first ballot HOFer and Blyleven getting in next year on his 14th try.
I know you can’t do “what ifs”, but imagine if Dawsone didn’t play his first 8 or 9 seasons on that hard turf in Montreal.. His career might have been longer and we wouldn’t be reading about two knee replacements.
He was a 20/20 guy for 7 straight seasons and for all of free swinging – the guy struck out over 100 times only 3 times. That is impressive.. Another guy came out of Montreal like that.. I think he is name is Vlad ..
Casey,
Are you saying that McGwire is not a Hall of Famer if there was no steroid cloud around him?
You can’t interpret the steroid influence on the numbers. There are too many variables on it. You’re going to have to treat any spike in productivity as a performer enhancer, but you can’t cause that doesnt account for people actually outperforming themselves or that did steroids before they became professional players.
What you can do for people that admit steroid use is to not let them appear on the ballot. But we know that they’re not going to do it, since the nation is so divided on the Pete Rose issue.
Its going to end up happening the other way around. The people that admitted are going to get a real chance at the hall of fame and the rest are not.
Smitty,
Never intended to compare him with Greg Maddux. I know better than comparing someone with Maddux. It was simply an observation of a fact. He led the league in strikeouts once, He also played in the same league as Nolan Ryan for a lot of time. I could compare him with Nolan Ryan, but we’re on the same side of the issue.
Blyleven’s “Uncle Charlie” was one of the best the game has EVER seen and one of the reasons he had so many K’s and a terrific career. He’s a HoFer in my book.
I saw Dawson play many times in person during his best (MVP) season for a mediocre Cubs team. A true 5 tool player, although his speed was beginning to wane. He was revered by Cubs fans … probably as much as Sandburg and Sosa. A true “pro”. Great point by Smitty about the pitfalls of playing in Montreal.
Gino,
I am not sure what makes a hall of famer. I just don’t think McGwire is as obvious as some think.
How could Dawson even consider wearing an Expos hat for the HOF ceremony and statue???? Can you imagine 20 years from now when everybody asks “What team did he play for?????”. Get serious … wear the Cubs hat!!!
That’s it … I’ve had enough. McGwire is not a Hall of Famer!!! N-O-T … NOT a Hall of Famer!!! He’s way too 1-dimensional … merely Dave Kingman on steroids. Actually, Kingman was a better fielder
I’ll say it will be interesting to see how this whole steroids thing pans out. On the one hand, we delight in athletes who excel; but if they cheat in some way, well, that’s horrendous. The rules for the HOF should be solely stat driven. I’d say suggest that for a period, some players might have been doping, but whatever. Ruth frequented red light hotels, Cobb was a racist, Rose bet on games, like that’s so freaking foreign to sports. Bonds’ head swelled to the size of a blimp – should he get in?
Another part of the problem is the sportswriters. While some of you out there remember Blyleven, some don’t, and if you didn’t see him, you’re not going to do homework and look at all his past performances. Same with writers. As a new crop comes in, they don’t know from seeing. I’m guessing no one here saw Gehrig play; can you really say he deserves to be in the HOF – of course, because of his stats. Name some of his contemporaries, some lesser known ones for example, and it gets a bit gray. Same with more recent athletes.
It’s the process, the HOF voting process, and the hindsight needed to estimate players that causes the controversy, and it will continue to be flawed, and people will continue to be upset. Heck, ask Pete Rose. Will steroids carry an asterisk? will anyone care when we’re all old and gray and bitching about back in the day and all?
Great point Bill. I never say Blyleven play. I’m 30 and I’m sure there are a number of sports writers out there who are within 3-5 years of my age who never saw him play either and have a vote. I would not vote for him unless his stats dictated it. I cannot speak with any intelligence on his playing career other than what I see in the stats. I’m sure many voters out there are the same way.
I did, however, see Mark McGwire play…a lot. I loved watching his at-bats when I was younger. He was as imposing a hitter as anyone in the league since I’ve been following baseball. He CRUSHED everything. Of course, a lot of that did have to do with the whole steroid thing.
I’m not making any arguments for who should be in and who shouldn’t. All that I’m saying is that Bill has made a great point about how long it has been since a guy has played. Just adding my own experience to prove his point.
Changing topics…any comments on last night’s Championship Game??
What an exciting beginning.
Would Texas have won with Colt McCoy?
How impressed are you with Saban? Two national championships with 2 different teams both within 4 years of the time he took over the program.
At halftime, did Lee Corso seem drunk or senile to anyone else??
Musberger and Herbstreet are a great combination for college football games.
I loved when Keith Jackson told the players that “This is hallowed ground…” before flipping the coin.
I loved the comparison between Mark Ingram and Emmit Smith.
Anyone have anything to add to any of those topics???
I did not see much of the game (don’t you know there was basketball to watch
). Was it just me, or was the line play kinda crazy? How many sacks did the Texas D get? But whenever Alabama wanted to rush the ball, they just threw the Texas line around.
I really think McCoy’s injury absolutely impacted the game in a very bad way for Texas. They kinda sulked for the rest of the first half and it showed. The key mistake was at end of 2nd quarter … the pick 6 by Bama … by a lineman! We unfortunately will never know how the game turns out if McCoy isn’t hurt.
I hate Bret Musberger with anybody. Kirk Herbstriet is very good … and almost comes close to making Bret look good …. but not quite.
At least Brent waited until the 4th quarter to say, “Folks, we are watching the freshman grow before our eyes..”
Does he have it in his contract that he has to say it at least one time during a game?
Wally – would you say they sulked or were shell shocked? I would go with shell shocked.. They couldn’t have been anticipate losing their QB – 5 plays into the game.
How great was the on-side/ kickoff drilled right at the front line of Alabama? Why isn’t that done more? The guy couldn’t and didn’t have a chance to move!!
OK, Smitty … shell shocked … they certainly lost all confidence for that entire half after McCoy left. And despite the McCoy injury, WHAT IF they didn’t try that shovel pass at the end of the half that was INT’d for a TD??? Big difference!
Hard to imagine being that freshman QB’s mindset after suddenly being thrust into the game … the national title game. Was that a brown stain on the hindside of his pants??? He was certainly shocked and awed in the first half, but deserves a great amount of credit for how he played in second half.
I’m sure we’ll see both of these teams open up next season in the Top 5.
The worse part of the shovel pass – You loss your QB 5 plays in and pretty much are holding on for dear life through the rest of the 1st half. To be down 17-6 was a victory in itself. I was shocked when they try that pass. Just touch a knee and get into the locker room and regroup.
But definite cheers to the Freshmen QB. He played a heck of a 2nd half.
Jordan Shipley is going to be a great WR in the NFL.. The comparisons to Wes Welker are right on. By the way.. It definitely means you have made it in the NFL when they are calling guys coming out of the college ranks, “the next Wes Welker”, “the next Charlie Weis”.. Oh wait.
From the (strong) rumor mill: Pete Carroll being heavily courted to coach the Seattle Seachickens. Would LOVE to see that happen!! (speaking from my ND perspective)
Wally
I heard that rumor and know what you are saying from the ND perspective. It’s just that I would love to see the Irish kick his tail one time.
Oh and yes I am scheming an article that will compare Carroll and Calipari and their duck and cover routines.